The Middle East... How it came to be!

[tomjez]

No here you're totally biased. PKK is not responsible for all the destruction of Kurdistan. They're "responsible" in the way that they attracted repression on kurdish land, but they are not responsible for the 4500 villages emptied and destroyed. (probably for some of them though).

[zurderer]

No here you're totally biased. PKK is not responsible for all the destruction of Kurdistan. They're "responsible" in the way that they attracted repression on kurdish land, but they are not responsible for the 4500 villages emptied and destroyed. (probably for some of them though).

turkish army is responsible of burning villages, but they didnt do this for just hobby or fun.

about factory, investment and education, I think this time It is complately PKK which is responsible.

Infact turkey is trying to enhance kurdistan economy not other way.

[Piling]

about factory, investment and education, I think this time It is complately PKK which is responsible.

Since 1923 ?

Colonialism is something that much modern states practiced since the 16th century, Europa as Ottomans... We have stopped before you, that's all (though we have still independantists movements in small former colonies). But in fact Northern Kurdistan is still a Turkish colony.

[zurderer]

about factory, investment and education, I think this time It is complately PKK which is responsible.

Since 1923 ?

Colonialism is something that much modern states practiced since the 16th century, Europa as Ottomans... We have stopped before you, that's all (though we have still independantists movements in small former colonies). But in fact Northern Kurdistan is still a Turkish colony.

no you didnt stoped, I think as a france citizen, you should think about it.

Also I am saying again colonialism is a western idea not eastern idea. our people see eastern turkey as our land, not someone land we should use for our benefits.


I dont know why I am still continue. can you tell me what are we taking from kurdistan?

I am repeating myself, but when turkey gain from kurdistan is much less than what she waste.

About 1923 thing, west part of turkey is mainly advanced last 20 year, after özal.

should remind you, borders of kurdistans are not much friendly borders. USSR,Iran, Iraq. So trade also harmed a lot.

Also there were turkish place, as poor as kurdistan. If you look your french designed mind to east, you would see ghosts never lived this lands.

when turkey have giving a lot encouragement for investment at kurdistan, when turkey is forcing his own people to go kurdistan(doctors and teachers), your accusations becomes complately wrong.

[Piling]

no you didnt stoped, I think as a france citizen, you should think about it.

I know that Turks ADORE to say that Corsica is a French colony, but elections are free in France and independantists have nothing in %

Also I am saying again colonialism is a western idea not eastern idea. our people see eastern turkey as our land, not someone land we should use for our benefits.

French colons in Algeria considered this country as their own (and in fact they live there since 3 generations), Israel colons see Palestine as their country (and in fact Israeli colons in Palestine risk their life to live there) and though they have left it, or will leave it...

but Turks claim all the time that Kurdistan is their country, but don't live in there, don't like the land, and vever go to visit it, even for holydays. It is only a drawing on a map, then the separation would not be a real suffering for them, if we think of it.

I dont know why I am still continue. can you tell me what are we taking from kurdistan?

I am repeating myself, but when turkey gain from kurdistan is much less than what she waste.

Yeah, that is right, Kurdistan is a nuisance for Turkey, as Algeria was for France, or New Caledonia in 80s... In fact it is like any "forced mariage", bad thing. Then let it.

About 1923 thing, west part of turkey is mainly advanced last 20 year, after özal.


when turkey have giving a lot encouragement for investment at kurdistan, when turkey is forcing his own people to go kurdistan(doctors and teachers), your accusations becomes complately wrong.

About investments :

http://vladimirkurdistan.blogspot.com/2 ... istan.html

[zurderer]

I know that Turks ADORE to say that Corsica is a French colony, but elections are free in France and independantists have nothing in %

lol dont missunderstood me, but I dont think turks give to much shit to french. I am sure 90(If not 99) have no idea about corsica(including me).

election are free here to my friend. Anyway I wont compare my country with france. this will be complately unjust to my own country.

I was thinking about africa, and bloody hand of france over them.(still)

French colons in Algeria considered this country as their own (and in fact they live there since 3 generations), Israel colons see Palestine as their country (and in fact Israeli colons in Palestine risk their life to live there) and though they have left it, or will leave it...

well? lands belongs to people who live over there. So france people, but you miss my poing. Turks at istanbul call that lands as their. I dont think france people give much shit for algeria.

but Turks claim all the time that Kurdistan is their country, but don't live in there, don't like the land, and vever go to visit it, even for holydays. It is only a drawing on a map, then the separation would not be a real suffering for them, if we think of it.

Turks also lived that lands and still living. Infact kurds expansion is even come later, when yavuz sultan selim encouraged kurds to immigrate. Kurds were allies of ottomans against iran. If we have no right to interest with kurdistan, I am sure a french have less right than us.

Yeah, that is right, Kurdistan is a nuisance for Turkey, as Algeria was for France, or New Caledonia in 80s... In fact it is like any "forced mariage", bad thing. Then let it.

wrong, as I said much turks see that land as their land. France only used algeria for money.


I will ask your again, tell me one big source turks are taking from kurds.

tell me why only 2 million vote ethnic kurdish parties took?

Dont you respect for democracy, as you see kurdish people dont interest much with ethnic division.

http://vladimirkurdistan.blogspot.com/2 ... istan.html

I dont think this is realy a good and neutral page, am I wrong? by the way, I can see It is not neutral even without looking it.

what can be reason?

[Piling]

I dont think turks give to much shit to french. I am sure 90(If not 99) have no idea about corsica(including me).

Ast to Tom, many Turks like to talk about Corsica and Britton

election are free here to my friend. Anyway I wont compare my country with france. this will be complately unjust to my own country.

The difference is that in france you can be an independantist, it is not a crime, and you can make an independantist party.

I dont think france people give much shit for algeria.

wrong. Algeria was more than a colony, officially it was a French department, and independance was a hard exile for non-muslim people. But that is war rules...

Turks also lived that lands and still living.

No. Turks don't like Kurdish areas and consider them as dangerous, poor, hostile, etc. Cities like Diyarbakir, Hasankeyf, Cizre, Silvan are Kurdish in their population.

tell me why only 2 million vote ethnic kurdish parties took?

Because DEHAP is PKK, and Kurds in Northern Kurdistan don't like them so much as you think. Especially since DEHAP collaborate a lot with Turkish state ... DEHAP is a party of puppets in MIT's hands.

http://vladimirkurdistan.blogspot.com/2 ... istan.html

I dont think this is realy a good and neutral page, am I wrong? by the way, I can see It is not neutral even without looking it.

It is an extract of the New Anatolian. I don't know if you consider it like a terrorist media.

[zurderer]

1 DEHAP 56,13 236.689
2 AKP 15,96 67.298 8 listesi »
3 DYP 7,19 30.330
4 CHP 5,92 24.963 2 listesi »
5 ANAP 4,04 17.056
6 SP 2,30 9.691
7 GP 1,74 7.323
8 MHP 1,52 6.415
9 DSP 1,15 4.829
10 BBP 0,66 2.784


This is from 2002 election,
GP, MHP and BBP is turkish nationalist parties. It looks like at least 15.000 voter of turkish nationalist party Infact you can even count dsp and dyp as nationalist party.
It becomes 50.000 voter. I dont know how many turks voted AKP, chp or anap.

I dont think kurds are lover of nationalist party. So just guess how many turkish people at there. Yeah they are not majority, but absolutely there were some turks at diyarbakır.


VAN

1 DEHAP 40,85 105.520
2 AKP 25,86 66.797 6 listesi »
3 DYP 6,48 16.743
4 CHP 5,15 13.307 1 listesi »
5 ANAP 4,48 11.570
6 SP 3,51 9.064
7 MHP 3,21 8.297
8 BAĞ. 2,28 5.901
9 GP 2,16 5.578
10 DSP 1,46 3.765
11 BBP 1,30 3.352

DYP+DSP+MHP+GP= 32.000

BATMAN

1 DEHAP 47,10 70.027
2 AKP 20,62 30.654 3 listesi »
3 DYP 9,59 14.255
4 ANAP 7,51 11.158
5 CHP 6,88 10.229 1 listesi »
6 SP 3,39 5.033
7 MHP 1,98 2.942
8 GP 0,79 1.169

DYP+DSP+MHP+GP=16.000

Şırnak

1 DEHAP 45,94 47.567
2 AKP 14,02 14.512 2 listesi »
3 ANAP 11,38 11.787
4 BAĞ. 9,68 10.022 1 listesi »
5 DYP 5,17 5.356
6 CHP 4,71 4.876
7 MHP 2,88 2.979
8 DSP 1,88 1.948
9 GP 1,26 1.300
10 BBP 0,62 643

DYP+DSP+MHP+GP=16.000

Should I continue?

[Piling]

Of course DEHAP wins in some great city. But they failed to have a seat in Parliament, not like HADEP.

And you know, some Kurds vote for Turkish parties, even nationalists, because of tribal rivalries... Electoral life is very passionate in Kurdistan. Moreover there could be some Turks kiving in Kurdistan, but I doubt they are numerous. And what is their job ? if they work for state did they have the choice ?

[zurderer]

I think you have no info about turkish politics. Hadep not gained a seat in Parliament,It was HEP, and It gained seat not because its vote is enough.

But because he made an allaince with another turkish party.(SHP)

there were always turk at kurdistan.

[Piling]

right it was HEP, I melt my memories (by the way I dislike Leyla Zana then don't wait for my praising of her). HADEP has won a good number of mayorships. DEHAP should be the successor of HADEP but it has been "rapted" by the PKK wing, then it is not an interesting party. And they have lost the last legislatives for they expected a "tsunami" in elections and seats in Parliament but they failed because of their stupid alliance with a Turkish party (small and I don't remember the name).

And for the vote of AKP in Kurdish population it is not surprising. When Kurds have not a Kurdish party, they vote islam (it happened too in the beginning of 90s... 92 ?)

[zurderer]

right it was HEP, I melt my memories (by the way I dislike Leyla Zana then don't wait for my praising of her). HADEP has won a good number of mayorships. DEHAP should be the successor of HADEP but it has been "rapted" by the PKK wing, then it is not an interesting party. And they have lost the last legislatives for they expected a "tsunami" in elections and seats in Parliament but they failed because of their stupid alliance with a Turkish party (small and I don't remember the name).

And for the vote of AKP in Kurdish population it is not surprising. When Kurds have not a Kurdish party, they vote islam (it happened too in the beginning of 90s... 92 ?)

This kurdish party is nonsense, how many time I should say Dehap got most vote.

HADEP 4,17 1.171.623 1995 election

HADEP 4,75 1.482.194 1999 election

DEHAP 6,14 1.933.680 2002 election

is this realy to much difficult to understand?

I dont know why it is difficult to understand.

[Piling]

You mean that the number of votes represent the number of Kurds who are pro-independance. I understand.

But it is not the good sign of Kurds'indifference toward authonomy, independance etc. (BTW neither HADEP nor DEHAP asked independance). Most of Kurds, especially poor people don't vote (they don't see the interest). They have a defiance or fear or mistrust toward state in general.

But the wide engagement in guerilla is a better sign of Kurdish protest. There is no family in Kurdistan (even in Guardians villages' families) which has a member in guerilla.

How a guerilla could last so long without any kind of support among population ? Because of their history, Kurds have not the culture of state, but of arms. The guerilla is their way to claim, in fact.

[zurderer]

Also no most of kurd voted, beause they want to enhance dehap number. Dehap is not a standart party they can ignore. It is a fanatic party, so Its followers will vote for him.(same for akp(or maybe should say old akp) or mhp.

Infact number of kurds follow independence is even less than this. As I said you before, more than 1 million vote Dehap get is from Turkish lands.

They have a defiance or fear or mistrust toward state in general.

That is true, but this is also changing. I hope AKP got much vote next election too.

Also because now kurds are big cities, their voice is heard by turks more, this will decrease enemity between nations. this is not what pkk didnt liked.

But the wide engagement in guerilla is a better sign of Kurdish protest. There is no family in Kurdistan (even in Guardians villages' families) which has a member in guerilla.

How a guerilla could last so long without any kind of support among population ? Because of their history, Kurds have not the culture of state, but of arms. The guerilla is their way to claim, in fact.

So they dont support guerilla like old times, Infact they dont want to return old days.

These people are simple people and peasents, be sure price of their good is more important than independence of Kurdistan. They is why their support decreased to pkk, because they saw pkk destroyed trade.

[Piling]

These people are simple people and peasents, be sure price of their good is more important than independence of Kurdistan. They is why their support decreased to pkk, because they saw pkk destroyed trade.

I never said something else. Kurds did never revolt if they have not been obliged to revolt by a stupid and cruel policy. The best support for the PKK were Turkish nationalists. If Turkey becomes a real and full democracy and recognizes fundamental rights of Kurdish people, Kurds have less interests to claim "separatism" and would have no interest to war, of course.

But psychologically, it is difficult for many Turks to admit the reality of Kurdish people, and for politician circles very very difficult.