Zerdesht - Who was he and what?

[Jamo]

Many people don't think that he was Kurdish. I mean even if he was born in a Kurdish city how would anyone know whether he was really Kurdish or not? At that maybe there weren't any Kurds or not the mojority. Example we Zazas of Dersim say that we come from the shores of Caspian Sea and Greater Khorasan which is near to Bactria but we cannot say he was Zaza or something like that. Turkmenistan is probably the country where he born but that doesn't mean that he was aTurkmen. Most people migrated and were nomadic so you cannot prove where was born and where he is buried. By the way Kurds are not pure Medians but were also mixed with Hurrians and other ethnic groups. Therefore you cannot prove that he was a Kurd. His real name was Zarathustra. Zoroaster is his name in Greek and other call him Zerdesht or Zarthost. Hustra alone means camel in Old Avestan. At that time many people were given names of animals such as horse and camel because these animals had high value.

Ancient languages such as Old Avestan are difficult identify. Some scolars say that Zarathustra may have spoken a language close to modern Gorani and Zazaki.

Do you think that Yezidism or Zoroastrianism was the oldest religion of Kurds? I know that Zarathustrianism is not the oldest religion of Iranians. Aryan Paganism was their faith. They used believe in Aryan Gods and spirits which very different from Zarathustrianism.

By the way if you are interested to learn more about Zarathustrianism you can have contact with the Zoroastrian association of Norway based in Bergen. http://www.bozorgbazgasht.com

[Diri]

Why don't you read what I said and reply to that, instead of discussing with yourself...


Calling him "Kurdish", "Persian", "Zaza" etc. is anachronistic since he probably would have identified as an Aryan (Iranian)... I didn't say he was Kurdish - but that two of the options for his birthplace are in TODAY's Kurdistan...

By the way Kurds are not pure Medians but were also mixed with Hurrians and other ethnic groups.

Nobody is pure anything... The people of Kurdistan, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Armenia, Israel & Palestine, Egypt and Iran are very mixed... The Middle East basically... So nobody can claim to be of one or only two peoples... The Assyrians for example will often propagate a version of history saying they are direct descendants of the ancient Assyrians - while this is unrealistic and impossible... They, like the Kurds and all other peoples of the Middle East have mixed with their neighbours...

Kurds are mainly believed to be the result amalgam of Hurrian tribes and Median tribes... But apart from this - Kurds have married and mixed with their neighbours too: Greeks, Armenians, Turks, Arabs, Assyrians, Persians, Azeris, Lors and many others...

Nobody is "pure"... Whatever that means...

[Diri]

I know the association (Anjumane Bozorg Bâzgasht) from before, but thanks anyway...

[Jamo]

Well for me it is not important whether he was Kurdish, Persian, Zaza or where he was born. The important thing for me is he is an Aryan. At his times Kurds, Persians and others may not even have really existed, since his birthday is unknown or should I say birthyear. I think that is actually good that we don't know from what ethnicity he was so nobody can claim him belonging to his/her tribe.

I have met also a few Kurdish Zarathustrians on internet. Most of them are from Iran and some belong to Ardalan clan. It is a good thing that we Iranics and Iranians go back to our roots and get interested in religions such as Zarathustrianism, Yezidism and Manicheism.

[Arashi]

Diri, sorry for a lengthy answer, but I couldn't help myself

Although the claim about Bactria seems to be supported by a lot of scholars and obviously by most PERSIAN Zerdeştî - there are many who say otherwise...

The "Western Iran" claim is a pretty old and outdated one. No scholar, with any authority on the matter (mind you, no Persians), would back up this claim.

Why would it obviously be supported by Persian Zoroastrians?

There are two Kurdish claims: 1) He was from Soma û Biradosta (Ûrmiye) 2) He was from Hewreman (hence Zerdeştî literature being in Avestan - which basically is today's Hewramî)...

Where did you get this Hewreman theory from? Is it your own hypothesis, simply because they speak an Eastern Iranic language similar to Avestan? So do the Ossets (I doubt they call themselves Kurds), but it's a rather vage connection, as people/languages/demographies have changed throughout the last 3000 years. Simply because today's Hewremani people identify themselves as Kurds doesn't mean they did 3500 years ago. This is exactly the same way some Turks claim Zarathustra or Babak Khorramdin to be Turkish.

There are basically 3-4 places people believe that he "might" be from... And of these, 2 are in todays Kurdistan - and the 4th was "Medya" back then - south of today's "Tehran" (Iran's capital city today)...

There is not just "one claim which puts him in Balkh", if you're trying to weigh it against the "three" Kurdistan claims. Sistan, Khorezm, Bactria, Turkmenistan, are all discussed options. What all present scholars within Zoroastrianism and Orientalism have agreed upon though, is that it would be impossible for him to hail from Western Iran.

As I mentioned - the Hewraman claim is further substantiated by the fact that Hewramî (language) is the direct evolution of Avestan... Somebody who speaks Hewramî will have little to no problem reading/understanding the original texts in Avestan...

Avestan was probably not a spoken language, most certainly not in Western Iran. You'll find a lot of people in India who'll understand Avestan quite well - does that mean Mumbai is a potential birthplace for Zarathustra? The fact that Hewramani people speak an Eastern language points to that they are rather out of place in Western Iran, much like Iranians are out of place in the US.

However - Avestan was the "high language" of the time - and must have been used by the whole of the empire in literature at the time - so that in a way weakens the Hewraman claim - since it becomes less "special"...

What empire? Zarathustra most probably predates the separation of Aryan people into tribes, and most certainly the migration of Persians/Medes. Neither the culture, or religion, or borders, or language of Kurds of that time bears any resemblance to what is explained in the Gathas and Avesta. This would strip Kurds of the pride of being the oldest inhabitants of Mesopotamia, and place them as "just" invaders and migrators along with the Persians.

As for his name - according to some sources his name was Aso, not Zerdeşt. Zerdeşt being a title - meaning "Enlightened" while others say "Aso" was a title, and not his original name...

Persians say "Zartosht", Kurds say "Zerdeşt"... Either way - all the names, even "Zoroaster" and "Aso" have meanings in Kurdish... And even if you changed the name to "Zarathustra" it will still have a meaning in Kurdish... His surname is indeed as you said, believed to have been "Spitama"...

The only correct version of his name is Zarathustra, as in the Gathas. It's an Avestan word - any meaning it might have in Kurdish, Persian, Spanish, Turkish are coincidences. Aso is a honorary title (actually it's Asho and a shortening of Ashavan); many famous adherents to Zarathustra have had this title before their names.
Middle Persian for Zartosht is Zardusht. Zartosht/Zardusht can in Persian along with other Southwestern Iranic languages mean (albeit in a corrupted form) Golden Star, Golden Plain/Desert, etc, but I don't see how that would be of any consequence.

You are right about Avesta being written later... Yet a lot of the Gathas have gone lost and most of the rest of the Zerdeştî literature along with it, sad to say...

The Gathas is alive and well in it's original form. I have no doubt you'll have little trouble finding a Kurdish copy of it. Do it!

If you're seriously interested in Zarathustra or Zoroastrianism I recommend reading "Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism" by Mary Boyce, THE leading authority on Zoroastrianism.


Finally, I don't see why anyone would WANT Zarathustra to hail from their people. He doesn't speak very well of his own people in neither the Gathas or Avesta

[Diri]

Of course he wouldn't speak well of his people (the Medes) - because they didn't accept his prophecy...

The Hewraman theory is supported by an Iranian Kurdish Zoroastrian scholar... I'll give you more info on him as soon as I get in contact with his daughter again...

As to the rest of your post: well done, Arash!

Thank you for correcting the mistakes I had written and for giving a new perspective to the matters I had highlighted...


Zende bâshit...

[Arashi]

Of course he wouldn't speak well of his people (the Medes) - because they didn't accept his prophecy...

The Hewraman theory is supported by an Iranian Kurdish Zoroastrian scholar... I'll give you more info on him as soon as I get in contact with his daughter again...

As to the rest of your post: well done, Arash!

Thank you for correcting the mistakes I had written and for giving a new perspective to the matters I had highlighted...


Zende bâshit...

Thank you

But if we're talking about the Medes during Zarathustra's time (there is no evidence of such a tribe at that time), and the possibility of him being a Median, you shouldn't equate them with Kurds, since they (according to yourselves Kurds existed long before the migration/invasion of the Iranic tribes) were seperate entities at that time. That would be like equating the Elamites and Persians, since they gradually (partially) merged into one people.

Anyway, happy new year

[Diri]

Of course he wouldn't speak well of his people (the Medes) - because they didn't accept his prophecy...

The Hewraman theory is supported by an Iranian Kurdish Zoroastrian scholar... I'll give you more info on him as soon as I get in contact with his daughter again...

As to the rest of your post: well done, Arash!

Thank you for correcting the mistakes I had written and for giving a new perspective to the matters I had highlighted...


Zende bâshit...

Thank you

But if we're talking about the Medes during Zarathustra's time (there is no evidence of such a tribe at that time), and the possibility of him being a Median, you shouldn't equate them with Kurds, since they (according to yourselves Kurds existed long before the migration/invasion of the Iranic tribes) were seperate entities at that time. That would be like equating the Elamites and Persians, since they gradually (partially) merged into one people.

Anyway, happy new year

Thumbs up for you...

And I already said myself too that "Kurds" does not equal "Medes"...

Happy New Year - check out the thread in the Shout Room, please!

[arisquest]

A small correction: Azaries and Kurds are part pf the greater proto-Indian-Iranian tribes, and therefore part of the Iranian nation. Despite the fact that they settled in part of the Aryan land 3500 years ago and having been part of the greater Iranian nation for all those years, now - actually for sometimes now - they feel they want their own independent country. This whole nationalistic fever was instigated by the British and now fueled by the Americans. Divide and conquer seems to be the most effective tool of subjugation by the imperial overlords.

[Emanoelkurdistani]

No certain mention to the "identity" of Zarthushtra, unless being Pure Iranian (Aryan).

But in case of Linguistics, indeed he didnt speak Old Persian, since Old Persian and New Persian are Southern Iranian Languages, though the language of his Holy Book, Avesta, is a Northern iranian Language along with Pashtu, Kurdish, Mazandarani, Parthian...

Besides it's a fact that Modern Kurdish Speehces are closer to Avesta rather than New Persian. As well as in some cases they are closer to Avesta even than Old Persian:

Avestan : New Kurdish : Old Persian : New Persian : English

zamat-ere : zama : damat-ere : damad : bridegroom
ziride : zirg, zil, dil : dirde : del, qalb : heart
zan- : zan- : dan- : dan- : know
zeriye : zirye : derya : darya : sea

[veanandjean]

Zerdesht was Kurdish. There are some very detailed acounts that i read online which may or may not be true. I believe he was Kurdish for a very simple reason, he was born in kurdistan which is accepted fact among scholars.
I wish I could remember the site but this is what I read online,

Zerdesht was born into a Yezidi family, he was a very gentle adn kind hearted person. He did not like the yezidis faith because it did not allow farming which was a draw back because people were leaving nomadic lifestyle. He spent alot of time thinking and walking in nature. When he first came up with the religion the other kurds rejected it, he only got a few converts from Kurdish people. So he left Kurdistan and went to the persian king. He told the persian king about his religion and the king asked him what city he was from. Now I forgot this part but it started with a D, sorry! . The city where Zerdesht was from was similar sounding to an East Iran city in the persian empire, the king confused his birth place with this city. The king liked his religion and converted, most of the persians converted after their king did. Zerdesht than left and went back to Kurdistan. He then attempted to continue and was able to convert more yezidis people to Zerdeshti.

What I said above was read online and may or may not be true. It hardly matters. The religion is very very old, much much older than judaism. you know yezidis new year goes up to something like 6700 and some.
Even the other religions such as kakayee are extremly old. I believe that judaism, christianity and islam took their ideas from our religion. thats how religions form. they collect bits and peices from everywhere.

heres a link to a youtube vid for a temple found in North Kurdistan (turkey region) dating back nearly 12,000 years, its not related to zerdesht but shows some sort of value of how old the relegions are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuqixqZqt2c&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&hd=1   

Turks only came to kurdistan around the 11th century which is roughly 900 years ago.

There are other temples found in Kurdistan (in iran region) also dating back 10,000 years.
Our culture revolves around fire (think new year), the sun, the nature etc. There are fire temples dating back 10,000 years. Look into it, our history is very very old. I like to think that Kurds were the first peoples in those mountains.