BUSH: DEAR TURKEY is MODEL OF DEMOCRASY

[dyaoko]

after Rice ,BUSH repeated : "DEAR TURKEY is MODEL OF DEMOCRASY"


I am sorry mr bush if Tukey has democrassy , i dont want democrassy.

[dyaoko]

here is the link http://northerniraq.info/news/index.php ... &tb=1&pb=1

[oe]

Hi,

I am not turkish but we should accept that when compared to other states in the region Turkey is the most democratic one. Sure, they are too harsh on kurds and muslims... Kurds were not legally allowed to speak kurdish until lately. Muslim women are still not allowed to wear hijab or any other islamic symbol... Turkish militay does not want to see Turkey as an islamic country, they do not want even Turkey and Islam to be used in the same sentence. Buti let's be honest, when compared to others, Turkey holds a big lead!

[Diri]

A big lead??? IF we compare Turkey to Iran - Iran has ALOT better living conditions for Kurds and minorities - Iran is the same FOR ALL - Turkey is good if you are TURK... Yes there are stricte rules in IRAN TOO - BUT COMPARED TO TURKEY THEY ARE MUCH MORE DEMOCRATIC...

[oe]

Diri,

Again I am not pro-Turkey or anti-Turkey. I love FACTS!! Turkey guarentees rights to minorities if it sees them as a minority.. Christians and Jews have much more rights than muslims for example. You can open up a church, try to convert people to christianity freely, but if you are a muslim you are not even allowed to teach your children your religion without getting permission the ultra-secular government of Turkey!!

And, the problem with the Kurds is Turkey does nor recognize Kurds as a different ethnic group. Turkey sees it as a sub-ethnic group which it considers as Turkish Kurds and Turks from Kurdish descent!! It does not see us as a different gruope from other people living in Turkey!! Thus, it beleves that if Turkey gives any priorities to Kurds and sees it as an other minority people, Turkey will eventuall break up.. That is the sole reason!!

But, again I am kurd. But, I am not anti-turkish nor pro-turkish. I only thick when compared to other countries in the region it is relatively better!!

[david]

Hi,

I am not turkish but we should accept that when compared to other states in the region Turkey is the most democratic one. Sure, they are too harsh on kurds and muslims... Kurds were not legally allowed to speak kurdish until lately. Muslim women are still not allowed to wear hijab or any other islamic symbol... Turkish militay does not want to see Turkey as an islamic country, they do not want even Turkey and Islam to be used in the same sentence. Buti let's be honest, when compared to others, Turkey holds a big lead!

Hello
My dear, when I read your comment on Turkish democracy, I almost jumped out of my mind. What democracy are you talking about? Turkey is not a democratic country and never been democratic country, Turkey was based on Millet system during the Ottoman rule, collapse of Ottoman Empire Turkey founded based on Fascist regime . Nowadays, still that ideology is continuing
Also, you mentioned that if we compare Turkey to others? What do you mean by others? Other countries like Iraq, Syria, and Iran? Or you mean Western countries?
I am not Kurds either but I am studying Kurdish Question in Turkey
Warm regards
David

[david]

Diri,
Again I am not pro-Turkey or anti-Turkey. I love FACTS!! Turkey guarentees rights to minorities if it sees them as a minority.. Christians and Jews have much more rights than muslims for example. You can open up a church, try to convert people to christianity freely, but if you are a muslim you are not even allowed to teach your children your religion without getting permission the ultra-secular government of Turkey!!

And, the problem with the Kurds is Turkey does nor recognize Kurds as a different ethnic group. Turkey sees it as a sub-ethnic group which it considers as Turkish Kurds and Turks from Kurdish descent!! It does not see us as a different gruope from other people living in Turkey!! Thus, it beleves that if Turkey gives any priorities to Kurds and sees it as an other minority people, Turkey will eventuall break up.. That is the sole reason!!

But, again I am kurd. But, I am not anti-turkish nor pro-turkish. I only thick when compared to other countries in the region it is relatively

Dear oe,

I am glad that you like facts therefore I would like to point out some facts for you.
First of all, according to Turkish law you can’t build the church only you can go to warship in an existing church. You can’t freely convert the people still some city under scrutiny of Police department. Also, security counsel recently held a meeting concerning of growing missionaries activities in Turkey. Religion Ministry issues a special fatwa for anti Missionaries activities in Turkey and many Christian has received death threat

Second point, yes you are right military and secularist are concern about the fundamental Muslim. Those fundamental only committed to cultural death not cultural life. Just refresh your mind, I believe in 1995, Turkish police founded collective death body in building have been killed my Hezbollah Militia, because Militia was getting support From Iran. So military was concern about fundamentals.


Third point, Turkey never considers or recognizes Kurds as ethnic minority always see them as Mountain Turks. Even recently when Prime minister of Turkey visited EU , himself denied that Turkey does not have nay minority problem. But, Pressure from EU community and help of Kurdish Diaspora finally, Turks came to point started to recognize the Kurds not mountain Turks but Kurds. Just for the record, until 1991 Kurds could not be able to listen Kurdish music consider illegal.

Fourth point, Turkey already broke up in to two, in terms of regional economic developments. If you travel from the west to east, you will see the differences. The west is highly developed and equivalent to European standards, but at same time the as is left from BC very primitive and poor. No road, no clean water, no sanitation, unemployment is high; the people carry the water by donkey to their house from miles away. The poverty of the south eastern Kurdistan is a consequence of Turkish systematic and ignorance policy
I am sure you are Kurds

I am not Kurd but I can see why can’t you see what I see?
Warm regards
David

[dyaoko]

hey David
I agree with you, Turkey is one of the most racist regymes in the world.
but unfortunately , for some geo-ploticial reasons, they recived too much help from westerns. (special USA)

by the way , welcome to this forum and I hope you enjoy talking here.

[heval]

[dyaoko]

i think diri , meant, compared to the admires that Turkey reicved frmo the world , IRan is better..

if we compare iran and turkey, we can say....turkey is a worse than iran
but medias show it as Turkey is paradise and iran is hell.

yes iran is hell but ...turkey is so mouch worse than hell.

[Diri]

Right - thank you for clearing that up Medya - That is what I meant...


Iran is hell - Turkey is far from hell - it is the DEVIL in hell...


Now - what I mean is: In Turkey you don't have the rights for Kurds as you do in Iran... (Choosing between bad and worse here) But still - don't deny that Kurds can freely say KURDISTAN, KURD, KURDISH without being tortured and thrown in jail----> See the difference? Believe me - you will live a more KURDISH life in IRAN than you can live in TURKEY... Listen to that - the name says it all - TURK-EY (for Turks) IRAN (ARIAN) for Arians... Also Kurds...

And yes I really hate both the countries - because of their inhumane and discriminatory attetude towards Kurds... But like I said - it is choosing from bad and worse...

[Delal]

David, welcome to the forum..

As you are researching the Kurdish question within Turkey I was wondering if you have read the Turkish constitution? It is an interesting document and incredibly depressing towards the Kurds as all of the Turkish actions towards them are justified legally according to their constitution...and then once you get into the penal code it is even worse.

Basically, the Turks see the identity of being a Turk (according to their law) as a Nationalist identity. If you are a Turkish citizen you are a Turk, yes minorities are recognized, but you are a Turk first and foremost. When you begin to accert that you are not a Turk but something else, that is when you begin to violate Turkish law. The Kurdish ethnic nationalistic movement violates Turkish law at the movement seeks to divide the borders and territories of the republic of Turkey. When you get into issues of the "Mountain Turk" that gets into more of the "tradition" of the Kurds and Turks not getting along.

The economic problems in the Southeast are due to the Emergency Rule that was established in the various provinences, which according to the constitution give the local military commander absolute control and no accountability of his actions in the area. I had a friend recently return from a job in Diyarbakir and he said that things were starting to improve and more government money was beginning to come back into the region...but the damage caused has been so great that it will be decades before the region will be economically viable again.

If you are interested, I could email you a copy of a paper I work evaluating Turkish law and the Kurdish question in Turkey, or I could post it here if more people would want to read it. It would have to be later today as that info is on my computer at home (I'm at work now), just let me know if you are interested.

[david]

Hello dera Delal,
Thank you for the warm welcome. I agree what you just said.please send me the info I am very much interested. Please , any more info you do have plseas feel free share with me.
specially role of Millitray in south eatern
warm regards
david

[david]

Right - thank you for clearing that up Medya - That is what I meant...


Iran is hell - Turkey is far from hell - it is the DEVIL in hell...


Now - what I mean is: In Turkey you don't have the rights for Kurds as you do in Iran... (Choosing between bad and worse here) But still - don't deny that Kurds can freely say KURDISTAN, KURD, KURDISH without being tortured and thrown in jail----> See the difference? Believe me - you will live a more KURDISH life in IRAN than you can live in TURKEY... Listen to that - the name says it all - TURK-EY (for Turks) IRAN (ARIAN) for Arians... Also Kurds...

And yes I really hate both the countries - because of their inhumane and discriminatory attetude towards Kurds... But like I said - it is choosing from bad and worse...

My friend there is no bad and worse both countries are Commited to suppress the Kurdish people. Their way of doing oppresion might be differ than one another the Result is the same.