BUSH: DEAR TURKEY is MODEL OF DEMOCRASY

[Delal]

Will do! but it will be later this evening though.
Cheers!

[heval]

Our chances of democracy are much higher in Turkey. Turkey is pressured by the international community and the European Union to embrace the Kurdish minority. Although Turkish politicians have been very slow in doing so, it is still something us Kurds need to take advantage of. Have you been to Turkey lately, Diri? There are Kurdish newspapers nowadays publishing articles written by Ocalan condemning the Turkish government and their policies against the Kurds. This is great progress since just five years ago.

[Diri]

Okey for those of you who didn't know - the TERM choosing between "bad and worse"... MEANS: "You don't really know which one to pick because they are JUST AS BAD"-----> So it doesn't mean like Heval translated it "one is better than the other"... NO - it means they are just as BAD...

So David - as you were the one who started to misinterpret the term... It is also directed to you...


But about the situation in Iran - Yes - and NO... Because things are TOO complicated to simply say "Kurds in Turkey are unknown to the world, while Kurds in Iran are unknown to themselves"... This is a SIMPLE way of putting it - you could when a less informed person askes - give him/her THAT explenation... But we Kurds and those who are engaged in the Kurdish cause should know better...

Sure it is VERY sad that Kurds in Iran buy the cheap talk about "Iranian blood" - but it is equally sad that Kurds in Turkey buy the cheap talk from APO!

And no - I have yet to read a OFFICIAL newspaper that has an article written by Ocalan condeming the Turkish goverment... That simply can't/wouldn't happen... I mean in ANY CASE he wouldn't stand as a KURD and condem them - he would stand as a TURK... And that in it self is depriving of Kurdish nationalism... And not least our National Movement... I read/speak Turkish - so if such an article were published I would have seen it LONG ago... Or if that IS the case and APO is as a Kurd condeming Turkey - then show me where and I will think about it...

[heval]

And no - I have yet to read a OFFICIAL newspaper that has an article written by Ocalan condeming the Turkish goverment... That simply can't/wouldn't happen... I mean in ANY CASE he wouldn't stand as a KURD and condem them - he would stand as a TURK... And that in it self is depriving of Kurdish nationalism... And not least our National Movement... I read/speak Turkish - so if such an article were published I would have seen it LONG ago... Or if that IS the case and APO is as a Kurd condeming Turkey - then show me where and I will think about it...

And about the Kurdish newspaper in Turkey. You will have to take my word for it because I read a newspaper that was on sale at most newspaper stands in Turkey with Ocalan's article written in Kurdish that VERY bluntly condemned the Turkish government. If you wish to assume that I am a liar by saying "That simply can't/wouldn't happen", then that is your choice my friend. I can only tell you what I have seen with my own eyes. I have visited Turkey more than once in the past 10 years.

[Diri]

Okey - I don't talk of "I know Kurdish issues better than you" with other Kurds- like you are doing now... I am from Rojhilat too - And you know that... I must have stated it a hundred times by now on this Forum...

But as for the article - what I meant was "SHOW ME" and "IS IT FROM A KURDISH POINT OF VIEW?"... It seems dear Heval that you missed my questions and points...

[heval]

Okey - I don't talk of "I know Kurdish issues better than you" with other Kurds- like you are doing now... I am from Rojhilat too - And you know that... I must have stated it a hundred times by now on this Forum...

But as for the article - what I meant was "SHOW ME" and "IS IT FROM A KURDISH POINT OF VIEW?"... It seems dear Heval that you missed my questions and points...

I think you misunderstood my point. I did not say anything about "knowing Kurdish issues better than" anyone, so please, do not put words in my posts that I never typed. The reason why in my posts I put things in a "simple way" (as you put it) is because I expect you to know what I am talking about more than anyone since you are from Rojhilat.

Unfortunately, I cannot show you the newspaper I read in Turkey because I did not bring it with me back to the United States. But I can tell you that this was a Kurdish newspaper written in Kurdish and the article could not have been more from a Kurdish perspective. Even you would have enjoyed this article and I know you are not fond of Ocalan.

[Diri]

Okey - thank you for clearing that up!

And about Iranian Kurds - I think there is a VERY big difference between Kurds in the Southern most parts and those in the North... I think Those north of Sine and those along the border to South Kurdistan are more selfaware and not directly more nationalist necessarily - but that they have a stronger belief in the Kurdis blood rather than the chea Iranian (cheap because it is VERY thin blood - more like water if you ask me)---> But I don't disagree with you - the Eastern Kurds will have the "biggest" hedges to jump over... Because they are in a much more complicated situation - true Heval! And it is harder there to shout "KURDISTAN FREE NOW!" than in the other parts... So yes - that is correct from my point of view also... But it is their own fault... We should just try to better inform them...

When I was on the Iranian Forum (Which I got banned from for wanting federalism based on ethnic and sectarian lines) there was an Iranian that said - "I have many Kurdish friends and "brothers" and they all see themselves as REAL Iranians - and they firstly are Kirmanshahi/Ilami/Sanandaji and then Iranian... "

And that is very provocative - I told him that - yeah - you are right - they aren't Kurds obviously... So they are not examples of Kurds you are giving - they are brainwashed Kurds and only by blood...

And being a Kurd is not about blood - just as being a Turk isn't about blood - it is a feeling and a passione...

And Heval - about APO - I don't really have anything against the guy personally... I never judge his persona - only his actions... There is a difference - and if that article is as good as you say perhaps he isn't that much a traitor as he has been earlier - (Just like other leaders have been traitors before - but who are now doing Kurds service and giving them a name and a location on the map)...

[heval]

Thank you Diri.

[ellinas]

wahahahahhahaha! So i should we have democraty... so lets kill people! come on... turkey democraty... ... now i understand why usa kill people... is democraty right? :-p

[Sir Don DeCarleone]

I have seen many bastards in my life but nothing like Bush & turk. Bush, the history will repeat itself faggot, hope so. , skull & bone from Pacha.

[ava61591]

OMGAWSH! bush has got to be the stupidest human being alive. What an idiot to think that turkey has democracy..american's are such dumbasses for reelecting bush as president.

[Diri]

It's politics... He isn't the "Brain" behind the US policies and you can't expect a man with the IQ equal that of a horse to steer a country - He has "smart" people thinking for him...

And the only reason he does this is politics... Using Turkey - but first they fool them into thinking they like them...

[cheryl]

heval writes:

Unfortunately, I cannot show you the newspaper I read in Turkey because I did not bring it with me back to the United States. But I can tell you that this was a Kurdish newspaper written in Kurdish and the article could not have been more from a Kurdish perspective. Even you would have enjoyed this article and I know you are not fond of Ocalan.

was that article in Welat?

as for david, i agree with Delal that not only is reading the turkish constitution a good idea, but also read the anti-terror law of 1991:

http://www.law.qub.ac.uk/humanrts/emerg ... y/tur2.htm

in addition, some commentary on the Turkish constitution here, from the Cardoza School of Law:

http://www.yuksel.org/e/law/cannibal.htm

and:

http://www.yuksel.org/e/law/cannibal2.htm

[Heja]

It is a shame that Diri and his friends are defending (blinded by the cheap propaganda about Aryans) racist persians.

They should be ashmaed of themselves as kurds, especially after the recent uprising in rojhelat. 13 people were killed in Seqiz, including a retired teacher (Mr. Shariati), people were fired at from helicopters. And yet our friends who have adapted an absurd ideology of "aryan" stuff, brainwashed by the "racist pan-iranists", are still defending iran.

Please update your brain. If you are living in rojhelat, you should remember ( if you were old enough at the time) or at least you can get info. from your parents, about the brutalities of these animals all done in the name of "Iran-arya-aryan-fars-pars, and all kind of stupd names" in the period of 1978-1983.

Have you forgotten the military siege of the cities?

Have you forgotten the massacre of Qarna village?

For the guys who are from Sinne, Have you forgotten the military siege and bombardement of city in spring 1980? and the similar events in Mehabad.

Please forget about this stupid idea of "aryan" stuff. Kurds are treated like sub-humans in iran.