Barzani promises housing & employment for PKK

[Feyli_kord]

The main problems between France and Turkey does not concern the Kurds, btw, but the question of Armenian genocide and the entry of Turkey in UE.

Rightist politicians in France are anti PKK. Leftists are anti Turkish nationalists. So Hollande could be more pro Kurdish than Sarkozy but with Imrali peace process, France stays neutral with a great relief. We are very busy with Mali and could not decide if yes or no we'll intervene in Syria. So Northern Kurds are not the main target of policy.

Since we're talking about France, I'm still waiting for the french government and Chirac to apologize to Kurds and Iranians for their role in being instrumental in the Anfal campaign and arming saddam and helping him procure chemical weapons. Now that we have given French companies part of our oilfields, what do we get in return? Knowing that France hasn't done shit against Baathists, and actively supported them, lent them pilots and hundreds of millions in armaments? Our Unprincipled leaders, Barazani and Talabani give these contracts out without reservations, idiots like in this article to who praise france, http://www.hawlergov.org/en/article.php?id=1360128694. The west demands accounts us and demands lot from us, but when do they ever get accounted? Saddam had an outstanding debt with France, 4 billions worth in arms.

[Piling]

I'm still waiting for the french government and Chirac to apologize to Kurds and Iranians for their role in being instrumental in the Anfal campaign.

In fact Chirac is now so senile that he did not know which are his left hand and his right

There was also Mitterrand involved (more than Chirac, coz he was the president), but he is dead.

Chirac has just apologized for Jews' deportation in 1941, Sarkozy refused to apologize to Algerians for the colonial war (1960) and France has also to beg pardon to : Madagascar (big massacres in 1947) Rwanda (1994, involved with Hutus to genocide Tutsis), Kurds for their help to Saddam (as most of all powers, btw, and especially USA), all its black role in Africa (Françafrique, as we call it), War in Indochina, etc.

So I guess that Kurds will got its excuses in 2040… France is rather willingly to recognize Armenian genocide perpetrated by others.

François Hollande might do it, but as a socialist, I doubt he will attack Mitterrand's memory.

[Feyli_kord]

I'm still waiting for the french government and Chirac to apologize to Kurds and Iranians for their role in being instrumental in the Anfal campaign.

In fact Chirac is now so senile that he did not know which are his left hand and his right

There was also Mitterrand involved (more than Chirac, coz he was the president), but he is dead.

Chirac has just apologized for Jews' deportation in 1941, Sarkozy refused to apologize to Algerians for the colonial war (1960) and France has also to beg pardon to : Madagascar (big massacres in 1947) Rwanda (1994, involved with Hutus to genocide Tutsis), Kurds for their help to Saddam (as most of all powers, btw, and especially USA), all its black role in Africa (Françafrique, as we call it), War in Indochina, etc.

So I guess that Kurds will got its excuses in 2040… France is rather willingly to recognize Armenian genocide perpetrated by others.

François Hollande might do it, but as a socialist, I doubt he will attack Mitterrand's memory.

Hence why we should cancel contracts with the French and refuse to make deals with them, until they come around and apologize. Thanks to their efforts, they suceeded in arming Saddam loyalists, long after saddam fell and was prosecuted, french weapons are still being used today against shiahs, coalition forces and kurds. I don't care if it seems naive, indignant and stupid. We sell our honor too cheaply and disgrace the memory of our people by dealing with these greedy opportunist predators. I'm tired of third world nations having to bend over backwards to accomodate westerners, regardless of their actions. Only western nations can get away by making illegal wars and making billions in war profiteering.

[Piling]

Only western nations can get away by making illegal wars and making billions in war profiteering.

You forget Russia & China .In policy, there is no innocent powers. You are oppressed or oppressors. Power is evil.

As Cersei told to Eddard Stark in Game of Thrones

"In the game of thrones, you win or you die."

[Feyli_kord]

Only western nations can get away by making illegal wars and making billions in war profiteering.

You forget Russia & China .In policy, there is no innocent powers. You are oppressed or oppressors. Power is evil.

As Cersei told to Eddard Stark in Game of Thrones

"In the game of thrones, you win or you die."

In our case it's because the nations don't unite. If all middle-easterners were united, you would never even be able to do anything. It's just the stupidity of our territorialism. Without this fight for land.

[Piling]

Everybody has its turn. Ottomans were strong, then they split, and then other powers raised. Europe dominated the world until 1914. Then USA and SSRR. Now USA and China and soon only financial firms. It is the eternal decline and fall of empires and civilization.

But if one day Kurds are strong again, they won't keep their hands clean : power is made of shit, mud and blood.

[Feyli_kord]

Everybody has its turn. Ottomans were strong, then they split, and then other powers raised. Europe dominated the world until 1914. Then USA and SSRR. Now USA and China and soon only financial firms. It is the eternal decline and fall of empires and civilization.

But if one day Kurds are strong again, they won't keep their hands clean : power is made of shit, mud and blood.

Last time we were in power, we defended middle-east from european expansionism. I highly doubt it.

[Piling]

Don't idealize the past of Middle East, When it were in peace ? Fitna began immediately after Muhammad's death. Then Middle Ages was a long story of hatred and massacres between several caliphs, sunnis and shiites. Ottomans and Safavids fought each others during centuries…

In Kurdistan, Kurds fought each others, tribesmen oppressed peasants and rayas, Bedir Xan prince massacred hundreds of Christians, Jews were considered as inferiors and had to kneel front of muslims, Yezidis were oppressed by others, and at the end Turks destroyed Armenian and Assyrian nations in all their lands.

And if Western powers were not innocent concerning Kurd's oppression, don't forget that Kurds were mainly killed and persecuted by their brothers of Middle East. Where is that Unity ? As a Feyli you know very well what is that kind of solidarity.

[Feyli_kord]

Don't idealize the past of Middle East, When it were in peace ? Fitna began immediately after Muhammad's death. Then Middle Ages was a long story of hatred and massacres between several caliphs, sunnis and shiites. Ottomans and Safavids fought each others during centuries…

In Kurdistan, Kurds fought each others, tribesmen oppressed peasants and rayas, Bedir Xan prince massacred hundreds of Christians, Jews were considered as inferiors and had to kneel front of muslims, Yezidis were oppressed by others, and at the end Turks destroyed Armenian and Assyrian nations in all their lands.

And if Western powers were not innocent concerning Kurd's oppression, don't forget that Kurds were mainly killed and persecuted by their brothers of Middle East. Where is that Unity ? As a Feyli you know very well what is that kind of solidarity.

Ok, so the middle-east was all evil and violent. That gives you the right to profit of carnage and rule other races? When did Kurds,Iranians,Iraqis sell weapons to Germany against France? When did Kurds proclaim france a part of the Kurdish states territories? You can never equate the middle-eastern relationship to the european one. Internal conflicts doesn't justify meddling. If two people are fighting on the street, that doesn't justify me going into the fight and slipping the other one a knife or punching the other guy, because i'll earn 10 dollars afterwards.

Seriously, that is the most absurd logic to justify meddling in other peoples affairs. It's the stupid "This is africa" logic. Everyone does it within a region, so that makes it ok get involved and profit off. Like I said, our affairs are our affairs. As foreigners, both racially and culturally, you have no buisness getting involved. Just as we have no buisness getting involved in European conflicts. Luckily we were exempt from being slave soldiers for the french/british in ww2 because of religious/cultural distance.

[Piling]

When did Kurds,Iranians,Iraqis sell weapons to Germany against France?

Iranians were too busy to kill Kurds in Iran and murdering Ghassemlou, Rajavi, Chahpour Bakhtiar, Ghorbani, Naghdi, Sherefkandi, Rajabi, etc, abroad. Do you think that your Persian brothers are ready to defend your own rights ? As a Kurd, you have to shut your mouth or die in Iran.

And Iraqis were precisely the people who perpetrated Anfal against Kurds, do you know ?

I never said that France and other powers were right. I am activist since a long time (probably before you born) against my own State policy for the Kurdish rights. I support the claims of Tutsis wanted that France was charged with genocide also, I am for all the excuses given to all the planet though it won't change the daily life of most of the real victims.

But I have no illusions concerning any humans. Cioran wrote that we always should support the victims, but never forget that they are made with the same filthy mud than their oppressors.

And the so called Middle East Unity and Golden islamic Age are just craps. Charging the external 'enemies' and complaining about Western powers (and others) is an easy way to not face its own mistakes and what is wrong in islamic societies. Now war has stopped in Iraq, Saddam is dead, and no Western powers gives weapons to Iraqi terrorists.

[Feyli_kord]

Iranians were too busy to kill Kurds in Iran and murdering Ghassemlou, Rajavi, Chahpour Bakhtiar, Ghorbani, Naghdi, Sherefkandi, Rajabi, etc, abroad. Do you think that your Persian brothers are ready to defend your own rights ? As a Kurd, you have to shut your mouth or die in Iran.

Iranian is a designation for iranic ethncities that live under the iranian state. If you mean the IRI, they're a different thing, they're anti-nationalist theocrats who will kill anyone who rebels, kurds or persians. Pan-iranic nationalists is a different one.

And Iraqis were precisely the people who perpetrated Anfal against Kurds, do you know ?

Iraqis or the baathist arab nationalists that your country supported? In 1991 anti-Baath Shiah Iraqis fought alongside kurds and all the anti-baath forces to liberate the contry from baath party spearheaded by saddam.

I never said that France and other powers were right. I am activist since a long time (probably before you born) against my own State policy for the Kurdish rights. I support the claims of Tutsis wanted that France was charged with genocide also, I am for all the excuses given to all the planet though it won't change the daily life of most of the real victims.

So all these grievances are useless? considering when the process is repeated all over again? By the same powers? And the fact that such an infrastructure is still maintained. You think france/england left the region? I already told you that france and most likely britain were negotiating with KRG, and already secured contracts to drill oil. Is this all past history?

Excuse me for not trusting and bending backwards to accept the powers that made exterminating us possible. We should all forget this buisness with saddam, iran-iraq war and the anfal campaign.

A question, Why are you westerners still acting like 9/11 happened yesterday. Why are you still making state policy based on that? We should let go of this (anglo-american alliance installing and supporting saddam, french and russians arming saddam and help him build chemical weapons) but you guys get to invade 2 countries for 3000 people. But when you gave 4 billion in weapons to dictators that were slaughtering us en masse, weapons you know where used to kill people, you're excused, because... well everyone does it. But we petty peasants from unknown "stans" have the audacity to complain! We should know our place, under the great western nations, the likes of america, england and "la patrie"

But I have no illusions concerning any humans. Cioran wrote that we always should support the victims, but never forget that they are made with the same filthy mud than their oppressors.

Totally irrelevant. One should support the righteous. Not justify violence by saying "but hey they could be doing the same thing to me", this dualistic morality makes morals relative. Why should someone even feel compelled to do the first and no the second.

And the so called Middle East Unity and Golden islamic Age are just craps. Charging the external 'enemies' and complaining about Western powers (and others) is an easy way to not face its own mistakes and what is wrong in islamic societies. Now war has stopped in Iraq, Saddam is dead, and no Western powers gives weapons to Iraqi terrorists.

None of this justifies glorifying and pretending western involvement never happened. Yes we have problems today, but by the same token you must recognize your influence in this. It's also naive to think the west is "done" with the middle-east. Libya and Syria are evidence of this. The west protecting phony states in the gulf, are evidence of this. Companies that were contracted for billions of dollars in iraq is evidence of this.

[Piling]

You don't seem understand what I mean. I say there is no excuse for Western powers to have supported Saddam (Russian did it also, btw). I say that all the Middle-East and Islamic nations were guilty also because they always supported and still support the persecution of Kurds.

When Anfal happened, which Arab State did protest ? What Arab League did ? Which Islamic public opinion protested in the street ? When Iran was attacked by Iraq, most of Sunni states of Middle East supported Saddam.

And now, which part of Middle East claims that Kurds have a right to independence ? What could bring to Kurds that so called Middle Eastern struggle for unity ? Just annihilation and assimilation : be Arab, be Turk, be Persian, or disappear.

And concerning the business with Gulf State I think that KRG is a bit involved also, now. They have to take the power, so they want to be the 'New Dubai'. At least, they have learnt the lessons of their past.

France supported FSA, that is right. But it is better than supporting Baath. Even PYD let Bashar, now. And concerning Lybia, I did not cry about Kadhafi's dead. I just regret that France killed him for avoiding embarrassing informations about his friendship with Sarkozy.

[Feyli_kord]

I say that all the Middle-East and Islamic nations were guilty also because they always supported and still support the persecution of Kurds.

You cannot conflate "islam" and nations, no such thing as islamic nations. I'm sure turkish/persian/arab nationalists hate us. But that does not make you free of guilt. That does not make you our friends either.

When Anfal happened, which Arab State did protest ? What Arab League did ? Which Islamic public opinion protested in the street ? When Iran was attacked by Iraq, most of Sunni states of Middle East supported Saddam.

And now, which part of Middle East claims that Kurds have a right to independence ? What could bring to Kurds that so called Middle Eastern struggle for unity ? Just annihilation and assimilation : be Arab, be Turk, be Persian, or disappear.

You seem to think i'm talking about the political establishment. I'm not, i'm talking about movements. Besides even if the entire middle-east was against kurds and wanted us to assimilate. That still doesn't make you our friends.

And concerning the business with Gulf State I think that KRG is a bit involved also, now. They have to take the power, so they want to be the 'New Dubai'. At least, they have learnt the lessons of their past.

Yes, because the USA, Israel and saudis pressured kurds stupidly to become anti-shiah. Because shiahs are not cowards and sellouts who will be bullied into being plundered and controlled by the west.

France supported FSA, that is right. But it is better than supporting Baath. Even PYD let Bashar, now. And concerning Lybia, I did not cry about Kadhafi's dead. I just regret that France killed him for avoiding embarrassing informations about his friendship with Sarkozy.

So you support al-aqaeda infiltrated fake "democrats" over assad. Assad is no saint, but replacing him with even more dangerous movements is stupid. It's like exchanging the lesser evil for the grander one. If they had supported an actual movement that was honest, it would be a different thing. The entire buisness with FSA is murky. Besides it doesn't concern you. Gaddafi was also not your buisness. The entire country is infested by the Islamic brotherhood, now.

[Piling]

You cannot conflate "islam" and nations, no such thing as islamic nations. I'm sure turkish/persian/arab nationalists hate us. But that does not make you free of guilt. That does not make you our friends either.

I never say that I am your friend. I am not, in fact. I am not even the 'Friend of Kurds' I' ve always found such titles incredibly stupid.

And if I have to go to prison or in hell after my death because of my nationality, why not, I don't care, but at first I have to beat Anthea in mah jong. Not before !

[Feyli_kord]

I never say that I am your friend. I am not, in fact. I am not even the 'Friend of Kurds' I' ve always found such titles incredibly stupid.

Then why get involved with kurds in the first place? That is entirely irrational. Paradoxical.

And if I have to go to prison or in hell after my death because of my nationality, why not, I don't care, but at first I have to beat Anthea in mah jong. Not before !

It's enough if you abandon this interest in kurds and take your companies and fellow countrymen with you. Stay in france, better yet, build a wall.