Israeli Kurds want representation in Pan-Kurdish conference

[Feyli_kord]

In your own country, there are many north-africans and sub-saharans africans, many who lived for generations in france, people who came in the 50s and 60s. They're not seen as french by ethnic french and they don't see themselves as french. I know it sounds crazy, but that is the truth.

French is not an ethnic group. So a genetic French doe snot exist. And of course most of them see themselves as French, because French is a citizenship, so they are equal according to law, because of jus soli, not birthgright.. They are not the first migrants : we have Italian, Polish, Portuguese, Spanish, etc. As America, as Australia, France is a land which attracted migrants and is still doing it.

You talk about French realities but you don't know this country and for example the fact that it is one of the UE country where there are the most numerous 'mixed marriages' (probably because we are not very religious).

Why is there still a debaTE then?

phpBB [video]

Stanford study shows Muslim job discrimination in France

Why does this happen: http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/nove ... 12210.html

Even this study shows there are problems.
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/frenchidentity.pdf



And yes french people do exist genetically, this is a genetic plot from a test, which shows ethnic french people place in central europe.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/23tshtw.jpg


I think this is the root for problems in france.

Concerning Jewish Kurds their genome is the same as yours. So because they are Israeli citizens, they are not Kurds and and they have to chose ? But what about other Kurds who got American, Australian or European nationalities ? Are they still Kurds, or not ?

It's not about citizenship. It's about identity and culture. I'm loyal to kurdistan and kurds, and then west-asia, not european union, european countries or israel, which is the case for jewish kurds. I'd say the same thing if lived in a igloo in antartica. Living outside of kurdistan, doesn't make me any less kurdish. Because my identity and culture and ancestry is kurdish. You lived a long time in kurdistan, have a career based on kurds, why don't you call yourself kurdish? lol.

[Feyli_kord]

What about this?

"French police violence unchecked, north-african and african youth in french suburbs are targetted"
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-upda ... e-20090402

Procedures for investigating complaints against the police in France fail to meet standards required by international law. Victims of or witnesses to police ill-treatment increasingly find themselves charged with the criminal offences of insulting or assaulting a police officer.

Amnesty International’s research shows that the vast majority of complaints concern French citizens from ethnic minorities or foreign nationals.

"Law enforcement officials in France perform a difficult and dangerous task, often at great personal risk. However, when police misconduct takes place it must be investigated promptly, thoroughly, independently and impartially," David Diaz-Jogeix said.

"People need to trust their police. Currently, this is frequently not the case. This will not be possible until they see that appropriate disciplinary measures are taken in time and officers responsible for criminal conduct are brought to justice."

Although not every complaint made against the police has merit, there are large discrepancies between the number of complaints made and the number of disciplinary sanctions imposed.

According to limited information, from the 663 complaints examined by the police inspectorate in 2005, 16 resulted in dismissal. In 2006, from the 639 allegations of violence, only eight ended with dismissal. A high number of complaints against law enforcement officials are closed by the prosecutor without reaching trial.

"Ghettos shackle French Muslims "

Blighted by bad schools and endemic unemployment, the suburbs are hard to escape.

Concentrated in poor suburbs of Paris, Lille, Lyon, Marseille and other cities
The immigrants' children and grandchildren are still stuck there - an angry underclass that is increasingly identified through religion.

Ten years ago these youths were seen as French "Arabs".

Now most are commonly referred to, and define themselves, as "Muslims".

Alarm

Many countries have ethnic and religious enclaves. But in France they cause particular alarm, for three reasons.

First, they are not supposed to exist in a nation that views itself as indivisible, and able to assimilate its diverse components.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4375910.stm



France divided over religious symbols:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/4106422/#.UhTyHj_b_t0

What does it mean to be French?
For Slimane, the new law is a reason to be angry. She said she's confused by the apparent discrimination against France's 6 million Muslims, the largest Muslim community in Europe.

"Why should we be punished?’’ she asked. "It’s just not fair. Are we any less intelligent than the non-Muslims in this school? I have many Muslim girlfriends, all good students, who wear the veil and who will have to quit school if this ban becomes law.’’

The latest polls suggest the majority in France back a ban that will become law by the next school year. Almost 70 percent of those polled agree with the prohibition, citing the need to protect the neutral, non-religious status of French state schools.

But a majority of French Muslims are against it, and that opposition is growing.

Even moderate Muslim organizations, like the French League of Muslim Women, which respects France’s 100-year-old "loi de laicite," or secular law, and supports integration of Muslims within French society, are outraged by the ban.

"It’s just an excuse that cloaks endemic racism against Muslims here,’’ said Noura Jaballah, president of the league. "Those who hate Muslims — who see all Muslims as potential terrorists — will now see this ban as a justification to walk all over us. I agree integration is failing, but it’s not because of the veil. It’s because of the bigotry of the common Frenchman, and now he will feel more inclined to spit at us.’’

[Piling]

French violence of police is well known but I have to add that many authors of these violences have themselves Arab or African origins. Moreover violences and unfair treatments of judiciary institutions are more against lower classes and poor migrants than against upper classes and rich migrants (never heard of such complaints in wealthy places of Paris, full of Lebanese and Arab Gulf people).

The common idea in French xenophobe is the same than anti Afro-Americans in USA : as most of criminals have foreign origins it means that their own culture/religion/genome lead to crime and anti-social behavior and not their social situation.

But the original topic is not the situation of France (though I know it passionates you) / The issue is 'What is a Kurd ?" What are the criterions to determine if someone can claim to be a Kurd or not.

So what is your exact definition of a Kurd ?

[Feyli_kord]

French violence of police is well known but I have to add that many authors of these violences have themselves Arab or African origins. Moreover violences and unfair treatments of judiciary institutions are more against lower classes and poor migrants than against upper classes and rich migrants (never heard of such complaints in wealthy places of Paris, full of Lebanese and Arab Gulf people).

First of, i doubt it. The police in european countries harass anyone who doesn't look european. They even harassed me one time, I don't even live in a poor immigrant neighbourhood or dress in anyway that looks thuggish. It's not class based, it's appearance based.

I know plenty of immigrants who're not "lower class" and don't live in immigrant neighbourhoods, who get or have gotten stopped by police randomly.

Also gulf arabs are not immigrating to france, they might have summer or vacation homes, the overwhelming majority are tourists. And the lebanese catholics are such a small population, no one notices them, so to tout them as some sort of "success" is stupid.

The common idea in French xenophobe is the same than anti Afro-Americans in USA : as most of criminals have foreign origins it means that their own culture/religion/genome lead to crime and anti-social behavior and not their social situation.

The french and indeed other europeans aren't fixated with culture, even if that's one part. They're fixated with appearance and race. Whether you want to say race= apppearance or appearance= race, doesn't matter. F.ex when european police stop people, they don't say "he's from a criminal culture", they say "He fits the profile of criminal or he looks foreign and suspicious". They might associate the culture with an appearance "racialize" or "racialize" a religion like islam, but in the end, they don't arrest people because they have a different identity, "algerian" or something like that, they arrest them because of their appearance. You realize how ridicules it is to say that someone is mistreated because they act like "algerian culture". It's an abstract notion. non-europeans and muslims(who're majority non-european) are treated by different standard because they look foreign and different, and sometimes because their customs and are different, but that isn't the main reason.

Also most foreigners don't commit crime. They have a proportionally a bit higher crime rates than native europeans.

But the original topic is not the situation of France (though I know it passionates you) /

It doesn't passionate me. And it is relevant to the discussion, since we're talking about identity.

The situation in france is a problem across western europe, all countries have this conflict, not just france. I cleaned my hands from this issue a long time ago. Because I realized how naive it is for immigrants who're not of european origin, to try to become europeans, always thought they and liberal europeans were dumb and very naive.

All i'm doing by bringing up this subject, is to show you how null and void your arguments are. And that your definition for identity is null. You can see from all these articles that one cannot become a part of a nation, when that is reserved for people with certain traits, and that genomes matter. I'm not saying that's the right thing. That's just how it is. That i can tell you as immigrant to europe and living with immigrants from all over the world, a large part of my life. Reality is, people with your view on identity are outvoted or their ideas are rarely applied in real life.

The issue is 'What is a Kurd ?" What are the criterions to determine if someone can claim to be a Kurd or not.

So what is your exact definition of a Kurd ?

Kurdish speaker, Kurdish culture and specifically of west-asian/Iranic ancestry of full or partial parentage, and loyal to kurdish nation.

[Shirko]

Are they israelis or kurds? That's the question. I can't even visit israel, because they'd detain me for my muslim background. But they should have seats at kurdish congress? If jewish kurds want to be kurds, they can move back to kurdistan. Otherwise, they can forget about seats. Will kurdish muslims get seats in israel? we all know the answer to that question.

This is a good idea. Ifbthey get a seat, the Kurds living in Lebanon, Jordan and the Palestinian territories should also get a seat.

And that 500 thousand figure of Jewish Kurds in Israel is much higher than the 150 estimate floating around. If that us true, then they should get a seat

Why should they? They hate muslims, as much as they hate arabs.

I would not have guess that Kurdish Jews have toi much hatred Muslims or even Arabs, why would they? Anyway not many Jews hate Muslims, just some extrimist. It is nice to that they see themselevs as Kurds.

[Piling]

Piling wrote:
The issue is 'What is a Kurd ?" What are the criterions to determine if someone can claim to be a Kurd or not.

So what is your exact definition of a Kurd ?

Kurdish speaker, Kurdish culture and specifically of west-asian/Iranic ancestry of full or partial parentage, and loyal to kurdish nation.

Many Kurds from North don't speak Kurdish, so they are not ?

Kurdish culture : these Jewish Kurds have the same culture than muslims or yezidis or chritians from Kurdistan. Idem for the lineage, most of Muslim Kurds were Christians and Jews : same genome.

and loyal to kurdish nation

Very subjective point : What is being 'loyal' ? During the past and until now, there are so many Kurds calling themselves 'traitors, jash, etc., even in this forum.

@HzKurdi :

We know that this conference will have no power of decision concerning policy, so the presence of Israeli Kurds would be symbolic. But it is an interesting way to remember to other Kurds that these Jews are an ancient and rich part of their history. From 500 BC until 1950 AD, they were the first religious group in Kurdistan. Between 16th - 18th century they were 40% of Amadiyya people for example. It would be interesting to know their background and their inheritance : Many Muslim Kurds have Jewish roots.

[Feyli_kord]

Many Kurds from North don't speak Kurdish, so they are not ?

They have lost part of their identity that they can relearn. If they don't want to be kurdish. Goodluck to them and their children.

Kurdish culture : these Jewish Kurds have the same culture than muslims or yezidis or chritians from Kurdistan. Idem for the lineage, most of Muslim Kurds were Christians and Jews : same genome.

I don't know enough about jews in kurdistan to say that. I highly doubt it, because even the jews and in iran and iraq don't match iranian and iraqi muslims. Jews are a endogamous group. They don't normally intermarry with non-jews. So they don't have the "Exact same lineage", but they are similar to kurds and other west-asians. This is one interesting thing about jews, they're almost like an ethnicity rather than a religion. This is besides the point.

Also no, majority of muslim kurds were zaradashti and yezidi before they were muslims. The greco-romans did not culturally integrate kurdistan or kurds into their empires. Hence when arab caliph mustassim invaded kurdistan, they were considered pagans, not christians or byzantines.

Very subjective point : What is being 'loyal' ? During the past and until now, there are so many Kurds calling themselves 'traitors, jash, etc., even in this forum.

being commited to kurdish statehood and nationhood. morally or practically.

We know that this conference will have no power of decision concerning policy, so the presence of Israeli Kurds would be symbolic. But it is an interesting way to remember to other Kurds that these Jews are an ancient and rich part of their history. From 500 BC until 1950 AD, they were the first religious group in Kurdistan. Between 16th - 18th century they were 40% of Amadiyya people for example. It would be interesting to know their background and their inheritance : Many Muslim Kurds have Jewish roots.

Wrong, kurds were zaradasht and yezidi and indo-iranian religions until the 9th or 10th century . Jews weren't the first "religious group in kurdistan" those were indo-iranian religions.

Why should kurds remember that jews are rich part of their heritage? Why do you care if jews who lived in kurdistan 80 years ago are viewed as kurds? They're loyal citizens of Israel. You can't be loyal to israel and kurds at the same time. Should french people be given algerian citizenship, because their grandparents were pied noirs? Why doesn't france give pensions to north-african and african who fought in ww2? You're being hypocritical here. The french can do whatever they want, but kurds cannot/should not, why these double standards?

Anyway, if kurdish jews want to be recognized as kurds. They should move to kurdistan. They can't have loyalities to two nations.

I would not have guess that Kurdish Jews have toi much hatred Muslims or even Arabs, why would they? Anyway not many Jews hate Muslims, just some extrimist. It is nice to that they see themselevs as Kurds.

You should look around. You should read israeli comments on islam and muslims. It's disturbing. It's like how assyrians hate kurds. I see their comments all the time on facebook/youtube/forums.

[Anthea]

Very subjective point : What is being 'loyal' ? During the past and until now, there are so many Kurds calling themselves 'traitors, jash, etc., even in this forum.

being commited to kurdish statehood and nationhood. morally or practically.

That means members of the PKK are NOT loyal Kurds

[Piling]

Should french people be given algerian citizenship, because their grandparents were pied noirs?

They had it automatically because they were already French. What we call pieds noirs are colons which came to Algeria after the conquest and the Sepharad Jews expelled from Spain in 15th century : they were not Muslims.

And concerning the double nationality VERY BAD TARGET because France has the speciality of automatic double- nationality, so your example is really a bad choice

I give you a survey 'how to become automatically French by birthright, whatever your other nationality (you can have 7 other nationalities, no matter you are French also and considered as French in France).

You are French since your birth if :

–Both of your parents are French : then wherever you born, you are French and you can not cancel it.

– One of your parents is French, then you are also French, wherever you born BUT if our birthplace is out of France, you can ask to cancel your French nationality when you are 18. If –one of your parents has been naturalized French when you are under 18 : then you are French and can not cancel it.

– One of your parent is born in France, then you are French (even if you born in another country) but you can cancel it at 18.

– Both of your parents are strangers, not born in France but you born in France : then at 18 you become French automatically if you have your residency in the country at least 5 years after your 11th birthday.

CONCERNING ALGERIA :

– If you born in France from both parents who are born in Algeria before independence (1962), then you are French by birthright. MUSLIMS OR NOT, there is no religious nor ethnic discrimination after independence (before that was another issue)
– If you are born in France after 1963 January 1st, and if one of your parent is born before 1962 July 2nd, you are French. If only one of your parents is born out of France (Algeria was France before 1962) then you can eventually cancel your French nationality.

OTHER COLONIES :
– If you are born in France and your parents were from former colonies or T.O.M (territoires d'Outre-Mer).
–If you are born in france before 1994 January 1st and one of your parent is born in a former French Territory before its independence, then you are French.

So as you can see, many Algerians, Africans, South-Asiatic people, etc. are automatically French because their parents were, whatever their birthplace.

Concerning Kurds : most of them are becoming French and their children are automatically French.

[Shirko]

[quo

Many Kurds from North don't speak Kurdish, so they are not ?

They have lost part of their identity that they can relearn. If they don't want to be kurdish. Goodluck to them and their children.

Language does not mean anything, just like yu said, it can be learned. And it changes in time and it could apear amd disapear. Many peaple living in Kurdish areas speak Kurdish but that does not make them real Kurds. To me, being Kurdish is a blood related athenicity, passed down paternaly, all real Kurds should be blood related.

So if some of those Kurdish Jews paternal lineage is Kurdish (they had direct paternal male ancestor who converted) then they are real Kurds and maybe mixed with Jews. Why should they lose their real ancestory and history. They do mot need to split between being Jewish and Kurdish, they can be loyal to both nations.
If you want to limit being Kurdish to language and citizenship only, then you will wipe out like 60% of the Kurdish global population.

[Feyli_kord]

Should french people be given algerian citizenship, because their grandparents were pied noirs?

They had it automatically because they were already French. What we call pieds noirs are colons which came to Algeria after the conquest and the Sepharad Jews expelled from Spain in 15th century : they were not Muslims.

And concerning the double nationality VERY BAD TARGET because France has the speciality of automatic double- nationality, so your example is really a bad choice

I give you a survey 'how to become automatically French by birthright, whatever your other nationality (you can have 7 other nationalities, no matter you are French also and considered as French in France).

You are French since your birth if :

–Both of your parents are French : then wherever you born, you are French and you can not cancel it.

– One of your parents is French, then you are also French, wherever you born BUT if our birthplace is out of France, you can ask to cancel your French nationality when you are 18. If –one of your parents has been naturalized French when you are under 18 : then you are French and can not cancel it.

– One of your parent is born in France, then you are French (even if you born in another country) but you can cancel it at 18.

– Both of your parents are strangers, not born in France but you born in France : then at 18 you become French automatically if you have your residency in the country at least 5 years after your 11th birthday.

CONCERNING ALGERIA :

– If you born in France from both parents who are born in Algeria before independence (1962), then you are French by birthright. MUSLIMS OR NOT, there is no religious nor ethnic discrimination after independence (before that was another issue)
– If you are born in France after 1963 January 1st, and if one of your parent is born before 1962 July 2nd, you are French. If only one of your parents is born out of France (Algeria was France before 1962) then you can eventually cancel your French nationality.

OTHER COLONIES :
– If you are born in France and your parents were from former colonies or T.O.M (territoires d'Outre-Mer).
–If you are born in france before 1994 January 1st and one of your parent is born in a former French Territory before its independence, then you are French.

So as you can see, many Algerians, Africans, South-Asiatic people, etc. are automatically French because their parents were, whatever their birthplace.

Concerning Kurds : most of them are becoming French and their children are automatically French.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic. There is a difference between nationality and being a part of a country on paper and being a part of the national community. One can be obtained, the other cannot.

[Feyli_kord]

Language does not mean anything, just like yu said, it can be learned. And it changes in time and it could apear amd disapear. Many peaple living in Kurdish areas speak Kurdish but that does not make them real Kurds. To me, being Kurdish is a blood related athenicity, passed down paternaly, all real Kurds should be blood related.

So if some of those Kurdish Jews paternal lineage is Kurdish (they had direct paternal male ancestor who converted) then they are real Kurds and maybe mixed with Jews. Why should they lose their real ancestory and history. They do mot need to split between being Jewish and Kurdish, they can be loyal to both nations.
If you want to limit being Kurdish to language and citizenship only, then you will wipe out like 60% of the Kurdish global population.

That's not even the issue here. Jews from kurdistan are genetically close enough to kurds to be part of kurdistan, even if we're genetically distinct. But that's not the problem. The problem is that they want representation and recognition, when they represent israel, not kurdistan or kurds. There is a cultural and political gap that can't be filled. Ontop of that alot of their Israelis compatriots are anti-islam(hence against the majority of kurds). It just is bullshit.

I'm sorry, liberal europeans like Piling can argue whatever they like and they can be inclusive to whomever they like, paying lip service to their ideals. But don't bring that dishonest bullshit to kurds. Pilling thinks that aslong as one has a citizenship, that makes you automatically a part of the national community, ethnicity, religion, culture and everything. You automatically become an insider according to Piling. I'm sorry, but that is amongst the dumbest things i've heard coming out of a westerners mouth.

There is no comparison to the kurdish diaspora in europe and jews from kurdistan. Jews from kurdistan belong to the jewish community with middle-eastern background within israel(mizrahi jews or oriental jews), they left kurdistan 80 years ago and profess alleigance to the hebrew nation and the state of israel. The kurdish diaspora has actual ties, families, interests in kurdistan, and belong to the global kurdish community. They don't profess alleigance to european countries or nations, they don't call themselves europeans and they're not a part of european countries national communities(majority population/ethnicity), they don't share either faith, genome, or cultural interests as ethnic europeans even. Anyone who claims the contrary, needs a serious reality check, because they live in clouds and lalaland. I have no idea why piling is to keen to define mizrahi jews as kurds.

[Piling]

illing thinks that aslong as one has a citizenship, that makes you automatically a part of the national community, ethnicity, religion, culture and everything.

I told you that French nationality does not concern ethnicity, religion, and even culture, but only citizenship which means to respect and and accept the Constitution. It is like American nationality, and the opposite of Volk nation like in Germany.

Ontop of that alot of their Israelis compatriots are anti-islam(hence against the majority of kurds). It just is bullshit.

Some Kurds are Anti Islam : Some Alevis, or Atheists, or some Kurds converted to Christianism. Are they still Kurds ? Does it mean that Islam is a part of Kurdishness ? Then what about Yezidis, Kaka'is and Yarsan ? And does it mean that Chaldeans from Kurdistan are only second rank citizens ?

[Feyli_kord]

I told you that French nationality does not concern ethnicity, religion, and even culture, but only citizenship which means to respect and and accept the Constitution. It is like American nationality, and the opposite of Volk nation like in Germany.

In that case , Kurds are ethnic nation or what you call volk nation, like germany. Which is unlike civic nation like france/america.

Some Kurds are Anti Islam : Some Alevis, or Atheists, or some Kurds converted to Christianism. Are they still Kurds ? Does it mean that Islam is a part of Kurdishness ? Then what about Yezidis, Kaka'is and Yarsan ? And does it mean that Chaldeans from Kurdistan are only second rank citizens ?

Kurds who rejected part of their islamic heritage are still kurds. Indeed kurds are an islamic nation. Even with prehistoric religions there. But they do not define themselves as seperate kurds and don't belong to a seperate nation. They don't claim to be a part of a different community or ethnicity. Jews however are an ethno-religious group. And alot israelis from whose comments i read don't think it's a bad idea to destroy/prosecute muslims(which includes the overwhelming majority of kurds). Chaldeans are seperate community. But no one has called them 2nd class citizens, that's a cheap tactic. Obviously they're not kurds, but they don't have different rights. So no they aren't 2nd class citizens, atleast nor formally. They probably face discrimination in kurdistan, being a minority in iraq. I atleast acknowledge that, you however won't even acknowledge that discrimination and racism in france exists.

[Aslan]

i see people r still arguing .... y is it wen pilings posts something a argument happens lol