Results of the war (2013)

[Anthea]

If you don't agree with the remaining parts, feel free to share your own knowledge. I will be happy to read different sources.

Why do you use a painting of Attila the Hun as your avatar?

[Qonyeyi]

Blaming the PKK for the killing of 40.000 people is a typical facist trait of the Turkish state and state sponsored medias. Most of the killings were extrajudicial and perpetrated by JITEM/MIT/Hizbullah. All elements of the Turkish state. While not all of the killings were ordered by Ankara, most of them were very well planned.

Another part of the killings happend during the 90's where Kurds were forced out of their villages and the bombings of forests and villages ( unless PKK has high tech aircraft and high tech air drop bombs, we can not blame PKK for this).

Blaming the PKK is way to turn attention away from the importance of PKK. Without PKK there would be no such thing as Kurds in North Kurdistan and Turkey today. This is a reality that no only Turks tend to ignore, but also to some degree some Kurds tend to ignore. When you look at PKK in this perspective, you see the importance of this movement. Not only in NK/Turkey, but also in the rest of the Middle East.

A similiar neglection of Kurds was happening in Syria during the Bath party rule. Kurds were not allowed citizenship and ownership, and Kurds were replaced by Arabs all over the country in high positions. In 2004, Ocalan ordered Kurds to organize in Syria and today we see the fruit of this decission through the victory of PYD.

[Anthea]

"I was sitting in the house with my children, and they came and said we are going to burn your house, and so we got out,'' Ms. Toprak told a row of silk-robbed Turkish judges seated before her.

''Who burned your village?'' one of the Turkish judges asked.

''The government forces,'' Ms. Toprak answered.

Human rights groups here say Turkish security forces destroyed as many as 4,000 villages and hamlets and displaced hundreds of thousands of Kurds.

the scorched-earth practices of the Turkish government were too sensitive a topic to speak about in Turkey itself. Claiming that Turkish forces had burned a Kurdish village, they said, was often tantamount to a death sentence.

Kurdish people who filed claims for their burned homes often disappeared, as did, sometimes the lawyers themselves.

The story, as recounted by the villagers, began on March 6, 1993. The troops of the Uzman Jandarma, a paramilitary force active in the region, entered Derecik at around midday and told the occupants of about half of the village to leave their homes immediately.

Once the villagers had filed out, the troops began pouring what some villagers described as a flammable powder, perhaps phosphorous, onto the wooden roofs and furniture inside.

''The men from the Jandarma came to my house and told me to get out,'' Omer Fidan, a 56-year-old fruit farmer, told the judges.

Someone struck a match, he said, and 28 homes went up in flames.

Mr. Fidan, a proud but haggard-looking man, said he managed to gather a few of his sheep before his home disappeared in the flames. Then he piled his wife and 10 children into a flatbed truck and drove them toward a new life in Diyarbakir.

''I would not wish on anyone what I went through that day,'' Mr. Fidan said

Turkish parliamentary commission concluded that more than 3,000 villages had been destroyed and some 378,000 people displaced.

A road sign, still standing, announced its name: Angul.

''The military came and said get out, and we got out, and then they threw some powder onto the house, and suddenly we saw that our house was on fire,'' said Cicek Dagtas, a native of Angul.

In other countries peaceful protests work but sadly NOT in Turkey

Leyla Zana (born May 3, 1961 in Silvan, Diyarbakır Province), is a Kurdish politician, who was imprisoned for 10 years for her political activism, which was deemed by the Turkish courts to be against the unity of the country. When she was a member of pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party, she was banned from joining any political party for five years with the Constitutional Court's decision to ban this party. She has been elected as an independent member of parliament for Diyarbakır by the support of Peace and Democracy Party.

She was awarded the 1995 Sakharov Prize by the European Parliament, but was unable to collect it until her release in 2004. She was also awarded the Rafto Prize in 1994 after being recognized by the Rafto Foundation for being incarcerated for her peaceful struggle for the human rights of the Kurdish people in Turkey and the neighbouring countries.[

[Qonyeyi]

PKK damaged the reputation of Kurds. When you take up arms and point it at the goverment officials and innocent civilians, you have already lost.

Let me give a example. Instead of guerilla warfare of PKK whose actions cost many civilians lives. A civil disobedience against state could have be done. ıf millions have participated in this. That would be a peacefull yet much stronger effect which the government had to revise its plans. You could have the support and sympathy from both International states and Turkish people.

Civil disobedience in Middle East. Example please

[Qonyeyi]

PKK damaged the reputation of Kurds. When you take up arms and point it at the goverment officials and innocent civilians, you have already lost.

Let me give a example. Instead of guerilla warfare of PKK whose actions cost many civilians lives. A civil disobedience against state could have be done. ıf millions have participated in this. That would be a peacefull yet much stronger effect which the government had to revise its plans. You could have the support and sympathy from both International states and Turkish people.

Civil disobedience in Middle East. Example please

I admit it would be hard maybe imposible. But my point is that kind of resistance would be much more effective for kurds. I think you agree with me on the idea but you have concerns for the aplication of the idea.

Anyway it is meaningless to discuss the forms of civil disobedience, as since 1984, Turkish government will see any form of mass disobediance as rebellion.

Of course I agree with you. Did I enjoy that 40.000 Kurdish civilians was killed? Of course not. Did I enjoy that Kurdish guerillas died? Did I enjoy that young Kurdish and Turkish people were forced to join military and died in their thousands? Of course not.

But Middle East is not Asia. Middle East and Africa are two places in this world where people are naturally speaking with guns. Guns are a part of every single MIddle Eastern family's life. Same goes for Africans. This was a state of society in most European countries less than 200 years ago. They then brought this idea with them to Africa and Middle East and made us ( Middle Easterners) powder up each other until this day, so that the Europeans could take oir ressources behind our backs and build up their welfare societies while Middle Eastern people were waring each other from one nationa to another.

But look at it this way, had it not been for PKK, Turkey would have been in a much worse situation today. Turkey is lucky that PKK is not a radical organisation. Sometimes I sure hope that PKK was more radical and took revenge whenever Turkish terrorists targeted civilians. But that is just my feelings taking over.

[Qonyeyi]

I don't understand PKK not being radical. The only thing left the PKK didn't do is chemical attack. Did you remember the 33 unarmed soldiers (not officers, just regular soldier who has been returning to their homes) whom killed by PKK by lining them alongside the road, and executing them. I remember lots of things like these, soldiers, womens, childrens, doctors. I didn't take a note of these but from now on, i will and share with you.

Again, these are not the acts of PKK. PKK is not radical. PKK has the man power ( both military wise and civilian wise) to bring havoc to any Turkish city. Did you not watch Newroz in Istanbul, Mersin, Antalya, Adana and Izmir? There were probably more people celebrating Newroz in these Turkish cities than any other Kurdish city ( of course apart from Amed ( diyarbakir)). PKK has made Newroz into a Kurdish peaceful festivity. If they wanted to, they could easily make it into a ''go to the cities and leave no Turk behind'' ( the way you are portraying it). PKK is not radical. When I asked you, when was last time PKK attacked civilians, you dug up a story that PKK has taken distance from hundreds of times and that has nothing to do with PKK's way of dealing with things. If you listen to Turkish news, even the slightest killings are blamed on PKK. This vision is hindering your natural stance by a whole lot. Remember, to start with, even Uludere was blamed upon PKK. This should give you an insight to how Turkish media works.

Mit, Jitem, Hizbullah, PKK off shoots ... All kind of groups have tried to stage attacks on civilians portraying themselves as PKK guerillas. This psychological terror never worked on PKK. PKK emerged as the stronger one, because PKK= Kurdish people. These two things can not be seperated no matter how much Turks want it to be seperated. The sooner Turks realise this, the closer we are to a lasting peace. Turks must accept that the leader of Kurds is Ocalan, and that their defensive forces is PKK.

And I do not believe there is such thing as an ''innocent soldier''. They are part of a war and they will have to accept that they can become targets. If PKK is to have mercy like that, maybe Turkey should stop using chemical weapons, and treating PKK bodies as animal bodies.

[Cewlik]

just regular soldier who has been returning to their homes) whom killed by PKK by lining them alongside the road, and executing them.

You racist defend Turkish occupiers in Kurdistan? Terrorist sate Turkey started this war with the illegal occupation of Kurdistan, they banned and denied the Kurdish identity. And Kurds should accept not to exist and not to have self-determination? Southsudans and Kosovos fight was legal, but Kurdistans fight is ilegal?

Kurds have all rights to kill Terrorist soldiers who are guilty for the occupation and massacres against Kurds.

[Shirko]

Sinan, that does not scare anyone, you should call areas that you are a majority in what ever you want, but Kurdistan is not Turkey, and you know it. So get it in your head, you admitted that the young Turk movement started all this in the ME, this lead to the fall of the Ottoman Empire and colonization of the West. So your great grand fathers are the ones to blame. Kurds came out the biggest losers of the 20th century, betrayed by everyone, most separated from each other and left to be absorbed in the new borders as minorities. And many more who were well established in the Ottoman empire, were left stranded far away from their homeland, with no choice but to survive and assimilate.

This has caused a backlash, armed rebellion and Kurdish ultra-nationalism. Now the question is how to correct this today, in modern the times, the information age. Turkey is working hard to win hearts and minds of the Arab world, but I don't see that effort projected towards the Kurdish world. This has to change if a greater ME resembelling the Ottaman empire so to be possible. Interestingly, we see developing day by day, after the end of the Syrian revolution, we will see many new changes.

[Shirko]

I dont see Western Imperialism alive today, hardly. It all starts with the UN security council memebers, US, UK, France and their allies, and Russia and China with their much fewer allies. Both of the major global forces have competing intrests. EU wants to see a secure Eurasian rescource and freedom of movement grid. Russia wants to control that grid, and China is rescource hungry. ME is the core if this grid, and main forces in the ME are based on 4 main religous groups and ethnic nationalities, and then it branches off from there. These groups have competing forces within them and are all influenced by the major global powers.

[Cewlik]

I just hate idea achieving victory by killing soldiers and civilians.

Not the people who fight for their freedom are responsible for this war but the terrorist state Turkey is, which dont accepts the right of self-determination for 20 million Kurds and which kills and tortures innocent people and tries to assimilate them.

Tell me, 30 years of struggle, who achieved what

That the Kurdish identity survived in north Kurdistan. Who knows what would happen if there would not be a struggle. The Terrorist state Turkey would certainly still deny the existence of Kurds and people who say words like Kurd or Kurdistan and singers who sing Kudish songs would be arrested.

Seriously, what are you trying to achieve.

You are just humiliating yourself.

Calm down my son, did I raped you or someone in your family? Why are you so aggressive?

I thought that Atagay was the father of all Turks, so the question is whos sperm was faster.

[Shirko]

Cewlik is right, every person has a right to protect himself, and the 30 year fight atleast preserved Kurdish identity in many areas. Hes very funny too

[Cewlik]

Cewlik is right, every person has a right to protect himself, and the 30 year fight atleast preserved Kurdish identity in many areas.

He knows all the state terror, he just want to provoke and to spam this Forum with his Turkish propaganda. He is 28 years but he is 24h non stop online, he have no live.

[Cewlik]

Are you stupid or what? Its enough with your shit. We already answerd you. Turkey started this war where they broke their promises and agreements to give Kurds their right of self-determination.

Terrorist state Turkey occupied northern Cyprus and killed and displaced the greeks there to build a fake state for 200 thousand Turkish illegal settlers. Turkey supported and participated in the intervention in Kosovo to build a state for 1 million people. The same terrorist state calls Kurds terrorists who fight for the self-determination of 20 million Kurds.

The terrorist state Turkey is responsible for this war, they destroyed thousands of Kurdish viallages, displaced, tortured and killed thousands of Kurds, denied their existence, banned their culture and language, killed kudish Babys, civilians etc. and committed many massacres against Kurds. Kurds have all rights to fight for their freedom from this terrorist state Turkey.

These are all non Kurdish sources.

A Ex Turkish elite soldier said that he killed thousand Kurds including babies and that they blamed the PKK for this crimes.

http://www.keditor.org/haber_2823.html

Kurds Are Finally Heard: Turkey Burned Our Villages

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/24/world ... lages.html

Turkish torture victim speaks out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4056181.stm

Dersim Massacre, 1937-1938

http://www.asv.uni-koeln.de/uploads/med ... ssacre.pdf

Massacre at Uludere

http://www.economist.com/node/21556616

Turkey is "world's biggest prison" for journalists

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/ ... RL20121219

Turkey in breach of human rights during military operation

http://www.neurope.eu/article/turkey-br ... -operation

[Qonyeyi]

Sinan, why don't you focus on the links Cewlik are sending you? The atrocities committed by Turkey. Those links portray buy a percentage of the total genocide committed against Kurds. It still continues today by AKP.

It seems you have the need to constantly point out PKK's so called ''attacks'' ( while they are not the perpetrators of the attacks you state), while at the same time being blind to the big terrorist in this game Turkey.

Mind you, I usually never agree with Cewlik, but this time he hit the nail. It is time for Turks to turn their anger towards their own government, not against PKK. If one million ETHNIC Turks go and demonstrate in front of parliament in Ankara and demand AKP to give Kurds constitutional rights, it will happen tomorrow.

Coming on these boards where majority are Kurds and spreading ''terror propaganda'' ( psychological terror) is not going to do anything. Most of us know PKK since we were children, and we know PKK do not target civilians. So you are wasting your time if you are here to blame PKK for some imaginary ''terror attacks''... Sorry to say.

[Shirko]

So what is your solution ?

Do you wish for a kurdish uprising which will lead to a civil war and after this civil war NK will be established as a nation state?

A uprising will be costly for both sides and the final outcome is not predictable. That is only a last option. Best solution is peacefull, with out spilling any blood or wasting rescources. A logical and fair agreement leading to a new legal constitution that protects freedom to all people. Thats if you are just talking about Turkey and its official border that include parts of Kurdistan, a constitution like in Iraq, its not perfect but its working. They are all free to practice their own rights within a larger frame work, this is clearly the best solution for the ME. And blaming the PKK for all the problems is a pure lie, they would never have even existed if it wasnt for Turkish policies.